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 Puncture weapons and instant kill

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SteveL
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PostSubject: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:13 pm

Puncture weapons will have an "impale" value. An arrow's Damage Modifier might be +2 (to compare, a battle axe, which is not a puncture weapon, is around +8 ), but it would have an impale value of, say, +15.

Compute damage using the impale value as the damage modifier. If this is sufficient to incapacitate or kill the target at full health*, this is in fact the damage delivered. Otherwise, use the normal weapon damage.

Reasoning: an arrow or a spear is extremely dangerous if it strikes a vital organ, but otherwise doesn't inflict much damage.
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*Not sure if the impale should be compared with the target at full health vs. the target at his current injury level. Realistically, I don't think it matters how injured the character is when a weapon punctures a vital organ; what do you think?


Last edited by SteveL on Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:45 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Removed smiley)
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Bruzynski

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PostSubject: Re: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:33 pm

impale is a critical. are all criticals impale?

so is there a rule for incapacitate? like 50 percent damage from one hit? That way an impale has an effect that is not necessarily based upon how manyhit points you currently have. So the impale is compared to your uninjured total as a comparison of say 'toughness' and if that means you are incapacitated then that is what happens rather than having a number for the damage...kind of like paralyze...no number for damage it just has an effect.
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PostSubject: Re: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:56 pm

Bruzynski wrote:
impale is a critical. are all criticals impale?

so is there a rule for incapacitate? like 50 percent damage from one hit? That way an impale has an effect that is not necessarily based upon how manyhit points you currently have. So the impale is compared to your uninjured total as a comparison of say 'toughness' and if that means you are incapacitated then that is what happens rather than having a number for the damage...kind of like paralyze...no number for damage it just has an effect.
A critical is possible for all weapons, but not all weapons can impale. A critical is when a 10 is rolled in certain situations (e.g., combat); this means another die is rolled and added to the total; subsequent 10s mean additional rolls.

In combat, one makes a strike roll and the defender makes a defence roll. If the attack result exceeds the defence result, the difference = base damage. To base damage is added the weapon's damage modifier (e.g., +8 for a sword), strength, etc. The defender reduces damage with his Buffer total, which is AR (armor rating) + CON. For every 5 points of damage or fraction thereof, the target loses 1 health. Most adult men will have 6 health (a large man will have 7, due to his Size being +1). Thus, large creatures will have more health, and resilient combatants (high CONs) will be able to withstand more punishment.

If a wound takes you down more than 1 health, you are penalized by an amount equal to 1 less than this (e.g., lose 3 health = penalty of 2). This penalty applies to all activity.

When your health drops to 1 you are incapacitated. At zero, you are dead.

So the impale rule doesn't really tie in with incapacitation except indirectly.
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PostSubject: Re: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:38 pm

Seems like you could have impale directly affect health. so you have immediate effect.
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PostSubject: Re: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:55 pm

Bruzynski wrote:
Seems like you could have impale directly affect health. so you have immediate effect.
If a puncture weapon's special (impale) damage value is compared with the defender's full health to see if he is incapacitated, it wouldn't work, because it would either kill/incapacitate him every time or it would never be able to do so. This is because a normal PC's full health is 6: If an arrow's impale value is 6 any hit would always kill (6 - 6 = 0); if 5, any hit would incapacitate (6 - 5 = 1); if less than 5, no hit would ever incapacitate (6 - 4 = 2, etc.).

To work, your idea would have to involve comparing the impale value with the target's current health. But then, no arrow would be able to kill a healthy target in one shot--except through the normal critical rules.

P.S. I tried other methods for puncture weapons (e.g., damage that gets past defender's Buffer is doubled), but nothing satisfied . . . until I hit upon the "instant kill" method outlined above.
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PostSubject: Re: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:46 pm

ok... now I really want the archer character...

1-6 is high for an average arrow hit - it's the same as a short sword for x-sake.

I think the high damage of an arrow incorporates an averaging effect of impaling
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PostSubject: I don't know   Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:51 am

While I agree that impalement should be very damaging , less than 1/2 the body would be critical to be impaled in, and even if their is impalement there are many variables, there are many references to eyes lost to arrows but not resulting in death, Philip of macedonia I believe, vs the accidental death of King Henry II of France in a tournament joust.

being hit with an arrow can result in a graze, an arrow stuck in bone, a true impale of an essential organ, or simply be at such a range and velocity that it can't sink in enough to do a critical.

to fully rationalize real combat occurances could lead to an over complicated system which takes away from the game more than it adds.

One flaw in the rules in the overall rules how to hit and armour is used together, if the max I can do is 6 damage and I rolled good enough to hit then the shots may have avoided the armour leaving a max of 6 possible but if I simply defeated the armour and pierced it the armour HAS TO HAVE lessened the damage much like our field plate does. Even chain or leather lowers the inertia of any blow so idealy the max damage of all shots shoud rise but all armour should lessen all hits.

As far as critical hits I liked the arms law charts.
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PostSubject: Re: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:51 pm

how do you know whether it is an impale or not? Or is that the point of the check?

You hit

Your hit is a critical

you compare weapon's impale to targets current health

if impale >= current health
then incapacitate or kill
else normal critical damage
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PostSubject: om now that i have my head wrapped around it   Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:31 pm

so a more highly skilled archer can get higher 'to hit' damage and is thus more likely to get a fatal puncture hit. I think you are correct. It should have nothing to do with the character's current health level.

attack = roll1 + skill1
defence = roll2 + skill2
buffer = ardefender

if attack > defence
then difference = attack - defence
if difference + puncture > defenderhealth
then damage = (defenderhealth * 5) - buffer
else damage = (difference + weapon) - buffer
else next round

there would also have to be a check for critical i suppose...but if this makes sense for the puncture it is nice. You have the effect of a highly skilled archer being very deadly, and it being very clear, very early in a battle that an archer is very skilled. Also it covers the idea that really good armour does mitigate the effect of serious non-critical damage (assumes that critical damage may bypass armour). This is like the bullet to the cigarette case thing...that is if you assign damage as a multiple of defender's health rather than straight kill.

or maybe i'm on crack
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PostSubject: Re: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:43 pm

Wilhelm wrote:
ok... now I really want the archer character...

1-6 is high for an average arrow hit - it's the same as a short sword for x-sake.

I think the high damage of an arrow incorporates an averaging effect of impaling
In D&D 3.0, a longbow arrow delivers a whopping 1-8 damage; so does a quarrel from a light crossbow; a heavy crossbow is 1-10! (For some reason, a short bow's damage is only 1-6; I suppose the authors reasoned that a short bow arrow doesn't have the velocity to penetrate as deeply.)
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PostSubject: Re: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:57 pm

Bruzynski wrote:
how do you know whether it is an impale or not? Or is that the point of the check?

You hit

Your hit is a critical

you compare weapon's impale to targets current health

if impale >= current health
then incapacitate or kill
else normal critical damage
See post No. 1.

Impale is not really related to criticals. A critical is when the natural die result is greater than 10 (the greater the total, the more successful the action).

An impaling weapon has an impale value in addition to its normal WDM (weapon damage modifier). Thus, an arrow has a +2 WDM and a +15 impale. The impale value is only used to determine if the target dies instantly from impalement; if the impale damage does not kill, the target merely takes the normal damage calculated using the WDM.

(Sorry if I am--or have been--unclear.)
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PostSubject: Re: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:08 pm

kubera wrote:
While I agree that impalement should be very damaging , less than 1/2 the body would be critical to be impaled in, and even if their is impalement there are many variables, there are many references to eyes lost to arrows but not resulting in death, Philip of macedonia I believe, vs the accidental death of King Henry II of France in a tournament joust.

being hit with an arrow can result in a graze, an arrow stuck in bone, a true impale of an essential organ, or simply be at such a range and velocity that it can't sink in enough to do a critical.
I believe I've taken this into account: an arrow's normal WDM is a paltry +2 to reflect the comparative harmlessness of an arrow that does not strike a vital area.

kubera wrote:
to fully rationalize real combat occurances could lead to an over complicated system which takes away from the game more than it adds.
That's exactly why I have striven to avoid this very thing.

kubera wrote:
One flaw in the rules in the overall rules how to hit and armour is used together, if the max I can do is 6 damage and I rolled good enough to hit then the shots may have avoided the armour leaving a max of 6 possible but if I simply defeated the armour and pierced it the armour HAS TO HAVE lessened the damage much like our field plate does. Even chain or leather lowers the inertia of any blow so idealy the max damage of all shots shoud rise but all armour should lessen all hits.
Agreed. The AD&D combat system is definitely flawed.

kubera wrote:
As far as critical hits I liked the arms law charts.
Consulting charts and tables slows down the game. Also, Rolemaster criticals undermine the abstract nature and simplicity of the hit-point system. (If the DM doesn't mind the extra bookkeeping, they can work--in my view.)
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PostSubject: Re: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:43 pm

SteveL wrote:
Bruzynski wrote:
how do you know whether it is an impale or not? Or is that the point of the check?

You hit

Your hit is a critical

you compare weapon's impale to targets current health

if impale >= current health
then incapacitate or kill
else normal critical damage
See post No. 1.

Impale is not really related to criticals. A critical is when the natural die result is greater than 10 (the greater the total, the more successful the action).

An impaling weapon has an impale value in addition to its normal WDM (weapon damage modifier). Thus, an arrow has a +2 WDM and a +15 impale. The impale value is only used to determine if the target dies instantly from impalement; if the impale damage does not kill, the target merely takes the normal damage calculated using the WDM.

(Sorry if I am--or have been--unclear.)

Yeah i kinda figured it out after i read it again. I like it...but it sounds like you may need some play testing...
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PostSubject: Re: Puncture weapons and instant kill   Fri May 19, 2017 12:49 pm

I just thought of something.  In combat you could fight indefinitely without taking any damage if your AR and CON are high enough to reduce damage to zero. And you can only survive maximum 5 hits that do at least 1 damage (5 damage)  but it is the same as 5 hits that do no more than 5 damage (25 damage).  It would be real interesting to see this play tested to see how it feels to play.
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