Viking longship travel rates

About 100 miles/day.

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The distance here between the lands is some 525 miles, making his [Bjarni's] average sailing speed 150 miles per day.

Both the great geographer Ptolemy and Marinus of Tyre had stated that average ship speeds in their time were in the range of 100 miles per day. In checking Norse speeds in the North Atlantic, this author found four old records of time elapsed while travelling between two points; dividing these by the distances involved gave speeds ranging from 73 miles per day up to 151 miles per day. We know Bjarni had been at the high end. . . .

A side wind can propel a square rigger, but at a slower speed. This leg for Leif was some 170 nautical miles. In the two days stated, he averaged 85 miles per day. [http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/vikings.html]

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Here are examples of the different kinds of speed: When Ottar (Skuldelev 1) sailed to Eastern Norway in the summer of 2003, the ship could, over part of the voyage – a distance of 147 nautical miles (Anholt-Lyngør), maintain an average speed over ground* of 4.5 knots. This corresponds to 108 nautical miles per 24 hours and gives a good impression of the ship’s potential speed with a light to gentle breeze from the stern.[http://vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/index.php?id=1308&L=1]

* "Speed over ground: Distance over ground/time" (does this mean "as the crow flies"?).

But overall speeds are slower because of delays:

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The whole voyage from the coast of Northern Zealand to the coast of Eastern Norway took in all seven travel days as it was necessary to seek shelter in Anholt Harbour due to a strong headwind. The resulting travelling speed overall, over the shortest possible distance of 189 nautical miles on the route from Hundested-Anholt-Lyngør was on average only 27 nautical miles per day or 1.3 knots.[http://vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/index.php?id=1308&L=1]

think we can afford a team of dolphins or sharks to pull us, or maybe if we pray real hard Cirda will give us a pair of 1000hp inboards?

buy slaves and make them row?

since we have the $ to hire resonably capable henchmen, perhaps we should get psi boy to find us someone who can control the wind as one of his specialities.

Zombies. But we'll call them something else, like, volunteers.

Now your talkin'

An undead crew of rowers... never tiring... 24/7 rowing... Useful for defense... and they don't drown either...

Ok so who has an animate dead spell and access to materials - to avoid this being perceived as an evil act, I suggest we animate orcs and the like...

this is one of those ethical quandires that always get in the way of game play. Ulthor who has never minded our practice of taking no prisoners, or robbing graves got all uppity when we mentioned taking orc or ogre babies as slaves to do grunt work. I also suspect he would get bent about raising the dead too, which when you get down to it really is a victimless crime on a much lower scale than the killing and robbing of graves we specialize in. I think the prohibition against this may be more about the dark powers that must be accessed to achieve such things rather than the mere desecration of the dead

Now if the object steve has was used to simply round up zombies that were plaguing someone else , we would actually be doing a good thing and a public service. If we simply cagged them for later use would that be evil?

I don't know if zombies are controlable enough or coordinated enough to row a boat as sncyronization is required lest you tangle orrs . However if we built a stone lined pit about a Km or two from the main fort with some form of remote triggered door, we could just keep them caged until an unsuspecting army moved over them then let the lose to create chaos.

They would also be good shock troops to use on more anti piracy missions.

We kill zombies because they are perversions of life, rotting corpses that have been animated--horrors. We must not create them; we cannot use them.

Would not driving a small army of zombies into the spears of a orc army not be an efficient way of killing these abominations?

It's the old dilema, can you use the medical data accumulated by Nazis who tortured prisoners to get it? Is the greater good of saving future lives worth the bad karma of using information tainted by evil?

In the long run even if we could rationalize it for our person use the stigma accquired would ruin our diplomatic gains.

Perversions of orc (or other evil) life are ok aren't they?

I have had good characters (LG paladins even) desecrate orc things without issue.

Desecrating an altar or animating a corpse, if they are all orc what's the diff in the grand scheme of things?

I agree it's a weird argument

why is killing an orc or descreating its tomb less evil than turning it into undead? How are live orcs less evil than animated ones?

I think the purists argument would be that the act of animating uses such dark forces that those involved are incapable of NOT being effected by these magics. The dark energy is innately evil and will damage their souls and/or shift their allignment.

For you to use your item which does not directly tap into these dark powers you should propably remain untainted and personally I could rationalize almost anything as the ends justify the means.

However the masses are neither accustomed to nor educated about the finer side of philosophical hairspliting and would consider those who make or control undead for any longer than it takes to seize and destroy them EVILLLLLLLLL!! Keeping ourselves on the moral high ground is probably imperative for our purposes of creating this town, unless we want to be thugs and force compliance rather than earn loyalty and trust.

I guess raising the dead also places the burden of their actions on the raiser. Should 10% of them escape the battle field to kill innocents civilians their deeds would be on you.

I can see lawful gods not likeing undead because
1. they prevert the normal order of things
2. they mock their creations
3. the enegies they use warp the souls
4. undead kill innocents.

Its amazing that good gods handicap their followers so much they cannot strike back, and use the same tools.

Of course how can we know the mind of the divine, until jonathan tells us.

kubera wrote:

Would not driving a small army of zombies into the spears of a orc army not be an efficient way of killing these abominations?

doing this is not a problem--saving zombies in a pit to do it is.

kubera wrote:

It's the old dilema, can you use the medical data accumulated by Nazis who tortured prisoners to get it? Is the greater good of saving future lives worth the bad karma of using information tainted by evil?

Not at all the same. We do not seek to use the zombies in anyway. If we encounter zombies and orcs and drive one into the other we are merely killing two birds with one stone.

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Not at all the same. We do not seek to use the zombies in anyway. If we encounter zombies and orcs and drive one into the other we are merely killing two birds with one stone.

So using them is fine but saving them for the right occasion is not?

No

Using them is not fine.

Taking advantage of a favourable tactical situation (driving one enemy into another) is not "using" them in the sense you seem to mean.

I don't even like the idea of taking control of zombies to have them attack an enemy. And certainly disapprove of using them as slave labour. It is evil.

So apparently your alignment is lawful good/anal and you definately don't suport the zombie thing, fine.

I figure Ulthor also won't and I'll probably be told from on high its unseemly for a Paladin and I can see the point, but on a purely rational level I still don't see the issue of taking something inherantly evil and making a GOOD use of it as long as we make sure they don't get loose and kill innocents, creating them I would definately frown apon.

It's also not a good image for our town or band of intrepid adventures so I can see not using the power accept in an immediate combat situation. Of course this leaves Doug who does not care and
Rotox?
harrison?

Steve could always use part of his year off as rogue zombie hunter and I'm sure he and Doug could find uses behind our backs durring the hiatus period. the ideas just bubble out of me when I think about what I could do with them.

A deralict ship full of them left for bait in pirate infested seas, wait till their engaged , close with another ship and pelt them will arrows till dead. Few if any of the zombies would be killed by arrows so indiscriminate fire would not matter.

use the same ship and direct it into the orc port, just to cause mayhem.

lead them to the edge of orc farming territory or a town and strap each zombie with a leaking barrel of oil and a couple of buring torches and send them walking through the crops or into town.

Risk free attacks on garrisons.

What I don't know can burden me with bad karma

Since zombie oarsmen are taboo...

Let us enslave the living and whip them within an inch of their lives to drive our vessels forward (or pay them meager wages if we need to be goody two shoes about it). Let us make them work in adverse conditions, putting their lives on the line, always risking their very existence so we may travel the seas in pursuit of glory and treasure...

Hey wait a minute... Wouldn't that be evil to risk the lives of the innocent in such a way? I have a better idea let's use the dead and have them drive our vessels forward... errr no wait that wasn't a good thing either...

Perspective is such a scary thing...

You start using zombie slaves and suddenly all the trade unions are up in arms about unfair business practices and flooding the markets with cheap undead labour. Suddenly no one is employed and the poor can no longer buy the loot you sieze while pirating, or the ships no longer can trade because peasants can no longer afford your trade goods after losing their jobs to zombies.

peasants in cities can't afford food so farmers facing gluts and lower prices stop planting so much and famine ensues.

chaos insues.

kubera wrote:

[...]

It's the old dilema, can you use the medical data accumulated by Nazis who tortured prisoners to get it? Is the greater good of saving future lives worth the bad karma of using information tainted by evil?

[...]

Nobody can ignore knowledge once obtained.

kubera wrote:

[...]

In the long run even if we could rationalize it for our person use the stigma accquired would ruin our diplomatic gains.

Yes, this is a problem for us. But killing orcs and other malign opponents (and defending our dominion) is more important; most people will excuse our methods. (20th century reference: few people seem to care that hundreds of thousands of noncombatants were deliberately killed by strategic bombing and atomic weapons during WWII; the common view is that "our" gov'ts have a moral licence to commit any and crimes--no matter how egregious and evil.)

kubera wrote:

You start using zombie slaves and suddenly all the trade unions are up in arms about unfair business practices and flooding the markets with cheap undead labour. Suddenly no one is employed and the poor can no longer buy the loot you sieze while pirating, or the ships no longer can trade because peasants can no longer afford your trade goods after losing their jobs to zombies.

peasants in cities can't afford food so farmers facing gluts and lower prices stop planting so much and famine ensues.

chaos insues.

On the other hand, if all work is performed for free, who would need a job?

Zombies aren't actually evil or even inherently homicidal. They are essentially robots. Smelly, creepy robots. They have no wills of their own; they follow instructions.

So what is the problem with exploiting them? A robot is a tool just like a hammer.

Of course, no one wants to see a zombie that was formerly someone known. Possible solution: conceal their identifying features so they become anonymous. Or polymorph them into more normal-looking humanoids.

The other problem is the idea that they are rotting, for rotting things are almost universally avoided--for practical reasons. But we're not going to eat them or have food nearby.

One other objection might be that the soul of the person whose body has become animated might not be at proper rest. This is a legitimate concern, but is it true? We could find out.

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On the other hand, if all work is performed for free, who would need a job?

but only those that owned zombies would control the means of productions leaving necromancers as the ruling class, considering most of them are very evil it would not be an pleasant society. Peasants would be left to starve while the rich were supplied with everything by the zombie hoardes, the poor would only be bread as animation fodder.

While I find the idea of free labour and cannon fodder we don't need to worry about losing, we probably have 1/2 the party and the Goddesss against the idea and if she does not like it I can't. I'm pretty sure Ulthor and Harrison are against and we know Craig is against. So you and doug can grab some zombies and harrass orcs with them but probably not from the city or with our knowledge.

Are we seriously considering the use of zombies as slaves? Where do you get them from if you don't make them? This is crazy.

---

But if we are going to be crazy...Basically you could convert your human population into zombies. At first the rich would buy zombie slaves to do the things that their present labour does. But like Lalanne says, you don't want rotting corpses around your food stuffs or your clean things. This means that the cheap labour would be limited to things like garbage disposal, trench digging, orc baiting, mill turning etc. So the live population would then have to migrate to better jobs in the service industry or as technical experts. Those who couldn't make the transition would be converted into zombies. This actually sounds like the "untouchable" caste from India...maybe we should just go to India and import some live "zombies" like the untouchables?

honestly I don't think they would be useful for much more than digging, dragging etc, they don't have the fine motor skills needed to make chain, be a smith, they are unable to syncronize enough to row in a team and they are too dumb to follow rules and would undboubtedly collapse any mine they worked in eventually.

even though I'm probably not allowed if I could i would probably only use them for combat and cage them safely away from the masses at other times.

We don't have the power to make zombies and our only intention had been for steve to use his new control item to collect any from hot spots in the region. Making zombies would be much more evil than simply taking them where we found them.

New topic
Since we probably have close to a year of hiatus to deal with, making a little list of those things you wish to achieve for Jonathan would be a good thing.

I would like people to consider where they would like their personal keeps

how much of their time they will spend training our troops better,

If they'd like to go on an embassy to some of our neighbors

If they want to sign on to one of the ships for the whole year so we have a competent sailor us for furture need. etc.


As for keeps I'm thinking we will eventually be building extensive stone walls and each of our keeps would be an anchor point along that wall. My keep I'm planning to place on the highground near the temple with a wall enclosing the temple, its and mine living area, the semenary, orphanage, making my initial build bigger than just a keep.

I think others should pick points out from our current walls where the larger walls will eventually go, Someone however should build on the shore to protect from landings and guard our ships. Perhaps just the other side of the river mouth.

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I don't think they would be useful for much more than digging, dragging etc, they don't have the fine motor skills needed to make chain, be a smith, they are unable to syncronize enough to row in a team and they are too dumb to follow rules and would undboubtedly collapse any mine they worked in eventually.

I agree with this statement except for the team rowing thing - I agree that they could not do it on their own but, with someone else keeping the rhythm (through drum beats/yelling) I think it could work. If it did work, it would not be an Olympic rowing team - they'd be slow - say half speed of human rowers.

I agree that we should stay away from animating humans. From the outset, I said we should animate orcs or other evil humanoids) Surely no one is concerned about how the orc feels when it sees it's brother walking towards him (hell the orc probably killed him and ate half the corpse). I realize the spell is specific to humans but, I think Jonathan would need to rule on this one.

I do have a solution to the rotting issue. We could animate skeletons instead. Think about it - no rotting, faster movement, no one would recognize the corpse and no droning of the word "Braimmms".

As far as the evil aspect goes, let us take guidance from the players handbook:

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the act of animating dead is not basically a good one

It is silent on making use of them once created...

The main tactical problem I have with using undead is that they can be turned and/or dispelled so easily.

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The main tactical problem I have with using undead is that they can be turned and/or dispelled so easily.

aye that would seem a problem but I think the point of using them is to surpise someone or distract their attention. I can think of many good ways to use them like skeletal pike walls in front of bowmen, sure they can be turned it a cleric wishes to get within turning range or point blank bow range of 50 archers.

They can hide silently in ambush indefinately

assuming the enemy even has a cleric undead is certainly a good way of calling them out so you can identify and target them.

hell we are rich we can buy or raise living monsters, war cats, hell dogs, wargs, golems. I think Doug brought up elephants and while powerful they are a bitch to keep fed for our small seasonal agriculture at this point but I'm sure we could find something we could raise as shock troops. It was the right idea just too big.

Any suggestions people?

Can you train stirges?
basilisk?
offer citizenship and land to some 1/2 ogres