Yo Jonathan!

Is there any chance that Ulthor would use his owed boon from Cirda to ask her to identify the humans and or magic users within the attacking forces???

Should be fairly simple and would not be dirrect interference, she could just mark them for us to see, remove their disguises or inspire Ulthor to see what needs to be seen.

I was also not kidding about a mere deva or 2 being sent to defend her ONLY worshipers on the entire stinking plane. Even if they only stayed back to heal us or camp out in the temple to prevent looters while the battle goes on in the city. Now a Solar would be a major commitement but a Deva? meh!

Maybe she doesn't have the power due to a lack of worshippers. Then again, she has the power to create/deliver valuable gemstones.

If we succeed, I'm sure Cirda will gain more followers.

P.S. Did everyone gain a Cirdian boon? What did we choose? Was it the gem-cache?

Some of the stuff I was reading led me to believe that good gods have access to deva and Solars but I don't think they are creations rather beings that simply choose to serve GOOD. I don't know if they are assigned by some intrusive big brother agency or are simply attracted like followers??

There was also a piece on gods and Avatars and it would seem that if active, a god can create so many avati depending on what kind of god they are, demi- none, lesser 1 intermediate ? Greater ? (5 I think)

If missing or destroyed a god can create replacements every so oftenm months for the top guys a year or two for the lesser.

So in theory Cirda should have access to deva's , maybe solars and most certainly has been awake long enough to create at least one Avatar. I'll try to find the article. Also as she has next to nothing else to defend said Avatar might even shack up in Cridastan to protect her interests and attract the curious. just a thought

Avatars can and do directly interfer on the prime material as the God's Proxy. There powers are again scaled to the relative station of the god. With the number of spheres she has she is at least intermediate in power.

The boon to Ulthor was because he, as a priest of another god could not take the personal gift she gave the rest of us for dedicating her church and taking the job to find her magic beer stein. We all got +1 save vs elemental attacks, he got right to ask a question. So no we are not owed anyting just Ulthor. This was a different boon from the greedy gem grab

Ah yes: the +1 save bonus vs. elemental attacks. (Why elemental?)

(An angelic minion coming to live with us sounds like the premise of a wacky new TV sitcom. I can just see the entity shrugging its arms and smiling in the lower corner of the TV screen during the airtime of another show.)

Quote :

"I
represent the elemental forces that sustain life-the air that you
breathe, the fire that keeps out the cold, the water that slakes your
thirst, and the earth that shelters you
you might almost term me a Goddess of “the home

So in effect she's an elemental oriented hearth goddess. Having all 4 elemental spheres gives her priests some damn good spells eventually, whereas we could have been stuck with a fertility goddess , great religious festivals crappy spells. I cast "my come hither look"

Either a sit com "The trouble with Deva" or some crime show,
"Deva P.I. he might look like an angel but to criminals he's a hell incarnate"

The forgotten realms Faiths and avatars book is quite nuts

greater powers 15 avatars, intermediate 5 , lesser 2, demi 1

no mention but hero gods probably 0

Even the Demis can make an Avatar in a year, so yes Cirda would have one but with the kind of levels seen in this book Avatars are crazy ass powerful,, much more so than the previous articles I read. fighter 30 mage 28 cleric 32 (all for one avatar)

A major avatar could probably ice a demi god

A minor Avatar could destroy the entire army over breakfast,

I don't believe the previous stuff I read on avatars was this crazy powerful but I can't find anyting else. The again an avatar should be more powerful than a Solar and Solars are pretty damn powerful.

Here's an accurate example
Heironeous - Intermediate god
2nd edition Avatar
Paladin 35/Ranger 35/Fighter 35/Cleric 33

but much weaker here
Cleric 20/Paladin 20 (3rd edition)

Fharlanghn Bard 20/Cleric 20 (probably 3rd ed)

I don't know the diff between 2nd and 3rd but 20/cleric 20th bard seems pretty powerful not to mention their innate high magic resistance vs mere mortals, required +1 or more weapon to hit, access to spells in all spheres, 150+ hit points ect , teleport, plane travel and faith specific powers.
For Cirda, they'd probably have immunity to all elemental attacks.

In the case of Cirda I would argue that despite being what I think is an "intermediate" god based on the number of spheres she has, her 3 visages would representative the 3 different Avatars she uses ,

Maiden
Wife
Crone
In fact it would make sense that the 3 each have different roles , the maiden inspires, is a symbol of youth, purity, innocence and unreached potentials. She is the Avatar that would show up to bless a birth, remind a paladin of what he's fighting for, oversee a ordination of a young priest

The Wife like the mother lion would be the visage used when defending the faith, protecting the hearth, easing the toils of others, nurturing and encouraging fertility.

The Crone would be the wise women giving advice, guiding ones moral compass and giving resolute strength

Perhaps Cirda never felt the need for more than 3, or she instead buffed up the 3 rather than have 5 weaker??

Cirda's Avatar Cleric 20/Paladin 13/elementalist 11 ?

As we are her only outpost on the planet, it would make sense that she send some help - and that help could be an avatar but, may take some other form. Given her weakened state she may be unwilling to interfere directly for fear of the orc gods feeling the need to get involved as well. It seems more likely she will only provide us with insights in to their army and how to best defeat them ourselves.

I think it might be appropriate for the devout to pray and make sacrifices to encourage some form of divine intervention (from a role playing perspective, some prayer and sacrifice is likely appropriate at this time). The rest of us can inspect defenses and make last minute
preparations.

Going the avatar route for a moment... It seems probable that Cirda would have created an avatar by now. I'd say her avatar would be more powerful than is described above. I'd also suggest that each of the 3 visages may have different powers. Going with "wife" visage, I'd say Elementalist 20/Paladin 20/Cleric 20.

Another option open to her would be to simply send us one of each type of elemental (16hd) to help with the defense. The water elemental could defend the river and ocean sides whilst the other elementals could defend the other approaches. Cirda is an elemental goddess and conjure elemental is only a 5th level spell - this is well within her power and would be somewhat more subtle than unleashing a divine being such as an avatar (did I just say having 4 elementals defending the city was subtle???).

Jonathan, did the human have any equipment on him?

Unless the rules were somewhat flexible, when Cirda first appeared to us after her relase it must have been her Avatar we were seeing, as full manafestation are not allowed by greater beings. no??

Meta alert. Ha ha.

I seem to remember that Gods cannot affect events directly on planes other than the one they choose as their home plane. The reasons escape me, but most choose a plane other than the Prime Material. I'll look into it and let you know (via Lysse) as to what is likely to happen regarding Divine Intervention.

As I understand it.

gods can't directly intervene which is why they have avatars, you explained that some of the lesser gods have traded greater power for the ability to intervene and yes, to do so they make the prime material their home,, I believe you said Iuz was such.

I don't want a wave of the hand and the army is gone , that would be unsatisfactory in terms of story, even saved by an avatar is demeaning, unless it costs us in some Major quest for Cirda as repayment. (good lead in for an unasociated module.)

Answering Ulthor's question about which of those figures out there are the magic wielders is not only doable as its not direct action, and make sense because Ulthor is already owed the boon and he certainly can't use it next week when we are all dead.

The solar/plantar/deva thing is slightly more reasonable than avatar but even the first two would almost make our presence in the battle pointless. Of coures an avatar or solar/plantar would not even have to fight, just ident the dangerous guys, roll in some inclement weather and stand back and give occassional hints. Their presence does not have to mean they do our job for us.

As I said before a deva or two who can both defend the temple from intruders (because we won't be doing that) and/or who drop by to add their healing + Ulthor's boon is probably the only edge we need.



In fact just pointing out their mages/priests for elimination I don't see how the walls would be breached, as they have no seige engines and no ladders. The odds are about 5:1, we have a wall, height advantage, a slimey wet ditch with spikes, caltrops , pungee pits, a dry ditch with oil and chaff, and sporadic patches of brambles to break up or slow formations.

I think the bigger risk is a traitor, which is why the Rildians were mostly made invisable before we sent the mages to rest, they can watch for people fucking with the gates etc.

in fact Ulthor's question could be as simple as asking for devine advise on how to win the battle? or the most prominent dangers present? which should identify the mages and any enemy agents. She's a god, and owes him a question, how about "what is their detailed attack plan" surely she can peer into an orc mind or have been listening at the tent flap of that army outside her ONLY temple.

While not a marshal god she would still be supra genius and obviously enough of a threat to have been imprisoned long ago.. If you look at the flanne pantheon Cirda as a hearth goddess charged with protecting the home and empowered with all 4 elemental spheres , she would have been the most ass kicking god the Flanne had. It would actually make sense that her priests would have been one of the bigger threats to the great migration of the Suel

I can imagine the priest hood at its heyday with dozens/scores of priest able to summon elementals,, that's gotta ruin the day of an enemy commander.

Anyway I don't think the ability to intervene is the question, the tools are available,, would she? and how big?

Helping us by providing knowledge of how to defend ourselves or defeat the opposing force avoids the direct involvement problem. Isn't that the classic divine being modus operandi... provide the worshipers with the knowledge to solve their own problems?

I still prefer the aforementioned idea of sending one of each type of elemental to aid with the towns defense (it's only a 5th level spell...) but, that sort of thing is up to Jonathan.

roll in a storm and give the girls a temp 2 levels for a day

6 call lightnings , 1 every 100 seconds for an hour ,, bwahahahahahahah:twisted:

Cirda pointing out the baddies is actually no different than when she warned us about the brotherhood guys boarding out ship. Striking them down would be direct interference, snitching on them is not. Apparently giving large monetary gifts is not direct interference, saving throw bonuses, even granting spells, wishes(Watun,Iuz) Canon includes Avatars/deva/plantars/solars and probably others I've not heard of, I assume they are included to be used, but how to use them?

The use of higher powered servants is allowed but requires proportionality, genocide of every orc between the DMZ and Blue (just cuz) would bring on divine escalation by orcish Avatars and perhaps even Good gods who don't want an escalation of war. The same attempt at genocide with a normal army would be a much lesser affront to the orcish gods.

Even the reason for intervening has to be proportional, having your avatar wander the world killing every orc priest just cuz is not. The book did say revenge for destroying your main temple or assassinating a major religious leader might be considered a reasonable use for an avatars arrival. If revenge for these issues is just cause then preventing them from happening (in a not too over the top way) would also be just cause (not that I'm advocating for an avatar, its over kill, I just like discussing meta)

You also have to remember an avatar may not come all smity like, it might come down make a big show and declare a peace declaring the town off limits, or negotiate peace from a position of strength. It might just awe and demoralize an army and send it packing. This of course would not deter assassins in town or while we travel, it won't stop a larger effort to interdict our shipping etc.

As for Cirda's level of knowledge about the army, the stuff on gods said that while they don't know everything, everywhere, they do know what's going on within 100 miles of a temple , or for so many days after their name is spoken in a particular location.

That said, gods are not ALL KNOWING, and can only focus on so many places at one time no matter how hard they try, (ADHD) or they may simply not care what's going on in any particular place.
I don't remember the number of places a god can focus on but its fair to assume Cirda is not overwhelmed by the number of temples and people singing her praises.

So is Cirda a hands on or off kinda girl? Is she good with getting letting her meager following get culled?

This brings up another issue.

Should we live I seriously need to found a couple spare temples for Cirda and spread the girls out to limit the chance of the faith being destroyed again. I had wanted to wait until 5th to release them but all of Cirda's eggs are not safe in one basket.

I'm thinking 1 in safeton, its close and probably under serviced being a growing garrison town, plus the faith would at least be known about.

Sending one to our native friends in the jungle?
how about one to the Felreev?
Greyhawk itself is a eventual goal but would need their permission.

we would have to keep two of the girls back as aids until the priesthood grows, bigger.

Methinks it's time to start an inquisition to help grow the faith.

Nobody expects the Spanish Cirdastan Inquisition!

If Cirda gets involved, we might want to be prepared for the likes of Gru'umsh (sp?)--orc god.

@Jonathan: Do we know if the gods intervened in the big war?

That's why any interference has to be proportionate to the problem and as subtle as possible. Information and slight perks for important followers is probably the norm, a battle line of Avatars is not. Its does work to our advantage that the orc god has 100s of tribes over a entire planet to watch, many of which are in wars. Cirda attacking one of his cities, burning his temples etc would be a far more serious affront than defending her only settlement.

We've seen our limitations and we have bigger problems than worrying about a god taking a dump on us at a later date.

1. 4 medium to weak mages is not enough to turn an army, and maybe not enough to save a city

2. We don't have the numbers for an open battle, skills are definately improving, equipment is good but 2nd level and decent armour is not enough to balance facing 2000 enemy with 300, unless they are spartans.

3. We need more spying done so we can meet a force even farther from our lands and whittle them down.

4. I've been loath to risk munane troops but the battle of the ford shows we need to use our fodder to plug holes, concentrate the superior damage and ROF of our bow troops. We have to chance lossing some of them to use them properly

5. We don't have dedicated horsemen we have to weight the cost vs benefit of creating a Calvary force, if not full knights at least lancers or horse bow.

As far as the dedicated horseman go... if you (by that I mean all of the town rulers) can afford them I would suggest you look at the horse bowmen option.

The Lance does 2-9 or 3-18 (x2 on a charge - but you can't charge every round so let's ignore that for a moment). The bow does 1-6 or 1-8 with 2 attacks a round and you can attack every round. Assuming you hit, the lance will average out to 5.5 damage per round on man sized and 10.5 per round on large. Continuing with the assumption that you hit, by contrast the bow will average 7 damage per round with flight arrows and 9 damage per round with sheaf arrows. Against man sized stuff (which one would expect to be the norm) the bow does more damage. Additionally a bow attack could be split between different targets if the first shot drops the target.

The lance charge is a great shock and awe demoraliser but, it can not be used every round. It's damage on a per round basis would be comparable to it's normal damage if you could charge every other round (I don't believe it could be that fast). Although the lance does double damage in a charge, so does the pike that is set to greet the lancer.

The range of the bow is a huge advantage as the troops could stay out of harms way by delivering a standoff attack.

The financial cost of knights/lancers will also be higher by unit as they typically employ heavier armour and larger horses.

I think you would get more bang for the buck out of mounted archers.

I agree horse bow is far more effective force , knights have a purpose to break a line, knock out primary targets, in fantasy terms knock out large sized creatures, but as mongols proved if you can't catch them you can't kill them.

On a historical bend a knight was more highly trained, nearly impossible to wound and a 7 foot horse is quite terrifying charging on you. A knight is worth at least 10 Men at arms.. which when you figure they probably have to reach 6th level before they move from squire to knight that makes sense. IN the D&D world with levels, putting a 1st level guy in plate with a horse is pointless and a waste of resources. As we only have a handful of knight quality(level) NPCs, this would be a long term goal, horse bow should be an immediate goal.

Couldn't agree more.

Without a doubt, historically speaking, the knight was far better trained than a common bowmen. Although bowmen were supposed to undergo rigorous practice sessions - it pales in comparison to a knights training. There is an on going debate if bowmen were actually able to inflict the damage that has been reputed to have occurred at Crecy, Agincourt and Poitiers but, right or wrong, common belief is that the the archer is the Achilles heel of the mounted knight (the paper to their rock if you prefer). That said archery has been around for milenia but, the heavily armoured and mounted knight only disappeared from the battlefield in the face of chemically propelled projectiles and pike squares.

But I digress. Back to the mounted archer...

The Japanese, American Indians, Mongols, Huns and others all proved that a bow could be employed from horseback with devastating effect. The hit and run aspect of this kind of assault is significant. The aforementioned training, armour and ginormous percheron horses of the mounted knight make them f-ing pricey. By contrast a guy who is little more than a commoner wearing leather or other light armour is thrown on a smallish horse while holding a bow is cheap in comparison. It's also going to be very effective in the D&D setting.