What Mopar missed

Those who needed the city facilites trained up in Greyhawk before we went home. We (via Harcourt) recuited a couple of orc spys to go down the coast and check out your home town and other overun settlements in regards to their order of battle, inter tribe friction amoung the orcs, and special focus on their human mercs and auxilleries which are most likely to blend in and cause us trouble... That and human mercs may have real mages who would be of much greater threat than orc shamans would be.

After training we headed home by the roads suprising and destroying an orc patrol numbering about a score, Fire and bows, only Carrow wasted his time getting his sword dirty. That and he apparently likes making displays of heads on spikes.

After arriving at Cirdastan we found a 1/2 dozen dwarf workers from Greysmere had accepted our offer of work and had arrived to work on the city walls. We feasted these fine fellows telling them about our recent discovery of both the lost clan and our removal of much of the evil taint on the old ruins. Further we informed about the discovery of the remains from their Greysmere kinsmen who were lost several hundred years ago searching the ruins.

The discussion eventually led to the discovery that one of the visiting Dwarves had some small recolection about the proceedures to smelt adamantium and was willing to help me with the process, Estimates given lead us to believe we can recover 300 lbs of pure ore for weapon manufactuing. Further I suggested that at some later point we create a join venture with their clan to seal up the mine, pump it dry, search for and exploit the vein. They seemed quite eager for such an opportunity.

I for one think fixing up the mine and letting them run with it for some set royalty would be greatly advantageous , we don't have the bodies, time or skills to mine this ore oursleves so the knowledge of its existence give us zero benefit. Their clan is not huge but it does have a wealth of skills we would do well to tap into, If and when a push comes to deal with the orcs having them as allies and their connections to other Dwarf clans could be quite usefull. It will take group approval
Shall we negotiate a deal with clan Greysmere to reopen the adamantite mine?


Other business, walls are going up at a decent pace, by mid next year we should have 1 level of wall surrounding the town and enough empty space to accomdoate a decade or two of internal growth. If we hang around and add our labour we can have the first level of stone walls up in 20 weeks.

As they are more capable I'm assigning the dwarves to start the towers
Jonathan, do they have levels so I can calc their level of work or are they just considered normal labourers?

I'd like them to get the first 1/2 module (1st level) of all towers done so the holes in the wall will be plugged.

On the espionage front the scouts have captured two humans trying to sneak in from the south, on both occassions they appeared to be charmed, geased, etc and killed themselves before they could be questioned. Apparently we are still considered a threat and should really do what we can to get the permanent walls up pronto. I'd suggest bringing in another 100 labouers for the winter months at least, there should be surplus labouers available outside the growing season.

Second is there a dectect Charm spell?, if we don't have it we need it or something equivalent to look for more spys.

Harcourt has full access to my hat of disguise for any wet work or building a network of contacts in the underside of cirdastan society.

Since our last visit 3 priests of different flavours have dropped in to get a look at our opperation and learn more about Cirda, Ferlangan , Istas, and Solonor.

Jonathan since Libram and Soloman are long term MIAs you need to make sure the appropriate amount of money for their personal towers and their share of the city wall have been deducted, something that I calculated at 79,200 gp.

dito for Rotoc and Ulthor, I think you did already but just make sure..

Mopar you were waffling about the cost of your portion of the building program. You can have a smaller tower or none, but I would suggest that you'd want to at least pay for your share of city walls. Its not as if we aren't generating more cash adventuring, plus safe walls in encourage settlement and a larger tax base, eventually we'll start generating revenue.

The difference going to a small tower is only about 8k savings, but a great reduction in personal space. No tower will save you about 40k... but leaves the wall with a considerable lack strong points.

Kubera, the 2nd level priest spell Detect Charm, divination, should help. It covers a lot of the charm-like spells, and it can detect quite a few charmed humans or monsters in one shot. I don't have access, but Ulthor might.

Um, is Rild going to share the information concerning the priest of Solonor with Carrow?

is Solonor yours, perhaps I got the flavours mixed up...?

Ignant Paladin. Yes, that's Carrow's deity. Theres a list of things I'd like to get done while we're in Cirdastan, and a visit to the elves would be high on Carrow's list. Is that something you've tried in the past? If nothing else, getting permission to forage for a few things would be worth the trip for Carrow.

you can do what you want in the woods, if you want to go visit the neighbouring elves you don't need permission just wander off for a week or so , you'll find them several days to the west over the big river, knock first they shoot on site.

We forgot to divvy up the scrolls. 1)Magic Missile, and 2) Priest scroll with Create Food and Water, Neutralize Poison, Raise Dead. We've no idea what levels the scrolls were spelled up. Jonathan ate the scrolls 9th level?

Kubera, for the spells you have available for study both Bigby's Pugnacious Pugilist, and Drawmij's Marvelous (Marvellous?) Shield are third level not second.

Thanks for the update; will need to consider.

The book states that our personal labour reduces the cost of the construction because we can replace paid laborers with our own work... the rules however don't make a lot of sense, I would suggest that tools, material and supervisory costs would not change, but by our presence labour costs would,, I just don't know the relative weighting of the buildings material/labour,, I'd suspect 70/30ish

Between the Arcturus/Lysee and the girls working part time, and the requirments for labour from our tennants ect we probably have 15-20% of all labour unpaid, when we arrive for a quarter year or so and all pile onto the job we actually do the majority of work unpaid.

Materials taken out of the picture we should have a minimum 10% in total project cost savings for our participation.

If someone wanted to do nothing but build his own tower, with all his own labour I suspect you could get it done 30% cheaper. That said it would take you 1800 weeks divided by your level, or nearly 5 years. Of course since you chased off the architech and qualified masons your tower might look like Homers, Crusty the clown bed

I forgot to chime in on one matter you raised Kubera. Carrow's fine with you opening negotiations with the dwarves, as long as he gets his cut--spells and training are expensive. It would be interesting to help them seal the mine. What type of percentage were you thinking of offering them?

What can we do will the 300-400lbs of pure adamantite once we have the ore? Sell our share, wait to have to spelled up? I'm not sure what contacts you may or may not have in Greyhawk or elsewhere.

I have no idea what it will take to open the mine but as we will not be working it ourselves nor manning/protecting it all we have is its location. We also have a time constraint, knowing the swamp is now safe it could be grabbed by the local humans anytime now.. This is why I want to deal the dwarves in pronto,,

1. we don't know how much ore there is if any
2. we don't know how fast ore can be mined
3. Considering it can be magicked up to +5 I have no idea what the ore is worth per pound.


From real world mining I know that if you turn over a property to another mining company and they take over all the expense and risk you get a net smelters royalty, which is the equivalent of 4-6% the value of the metal mined.

Considering we took the risk to clean it out I would put us at the high end of that range. If they require us to help seal it and make sure its safe from underdark access, especially if that turns into a big bug hunt then we might earn in up to 10% I would not expect more unless we fund and man its rehabilitation. We don't need the extra hassle in my opinion.

As for us we would take the royalites in cash or metal ,divided evenly to use as you see fit. You'd likely sell it I'd likely trade it for weapons for my guard and save enough for that really nice sword I will want to have. Considering most of the good magic stuff we find will never be bastard swords or halberds I'll need to commission anything extra special I wish to own.

Agreed abut the hassle: take our cut and let them figure out how to man and work the mine; however, if they need the help, I have no problem clearing and sealing the mine.

That percentage sounds good.

I've been wondering what adamantite is worth as well (I'll try and check some dragon magazines)...

...Okay, so in D1-2, Drow merchants have mithral and adamantite bars at, "100 g.p weight each." Their value listed in the module: I bar of mithral = 2500 g.p, 1 bar adamantite = 4000 g.p. From D1-2, "**value in the underworld only is 4,000 g.p./bar." This implies the surface world value for both ores is more.

I would probably keep enough back for a sword or shield or both (about 14lbs total), the rest would be sold. That said, it does depends on how much ore we each end up having once the deal is struck.

Will we, as a group, take the percentage in refined ore, or the cash equivalent?

Well I would say we'd get about 40 lbs each from the ore we have, That puts someone well on their way to mega armour or a full selection of weapons. The old weights claimed 100gp weight was 10lbs correct?

With your pricing that would give us each 16,000gp worth of metal?? wow,

Yet this price seems reasonable considering the amount of metal needed to make a weapon and the costs of highly enchanted items , the metal would only be 10-20% of an item at this price, the remainder smith work and magic which sounds reasonable

(we do not consider a gold coin to be a 10 to the pound like original rules specified. historically gold coins were occassionaly an ounce for big ones but most coins were in the .25 ounce range throughout history. I don't remember what Jonathan set but I think it was 20/lb.)


For new metal I'd suggest we take the metal, not the money,, the metal is a high priced luxury good and for Cirdastan to be a market with a regular supply would put our market on the map.

my crafting goal is to get good enough to work this stuff myself, I'm at level 8 for armourer so its not far off,, weapon smith is further off but one day I'm making myself a vorpal halberd. snicker-snack

Kubera,

Jonathan said 300 to 400lbs, so 40 lbs plus is correct. That's a set of chainmail right there.

Yes, the old ratio was 10 g.p. = 1 lbs, so 10 lbs = 100 g.p..

Don't forget that's the price in the underworld per bar. The surface world price should be higher.

So, 17,142.8 g.p. each would be the minimum worth, if we go by the canon reference, more if we have a surface price for the rarest, most coveted of metals.

I agree, given that this is the only metal that can be enchanted to +5, it should be expensive as hell.

After finding the reference, I'm all for keeping the metal as my part of the cut. It may take me years to gather the cash or the experience to have some things made and spelled up, but Carrow can wait.

The vorpal halberd

A minor correction - we hired 2 orcish looking half-orcs (not full orcs). I was in disguise, they do not know of any association with Cirdastan.

We should let the dwarves do the mining for a 10% commission NOW! (I've worked for companies that collect royalties - it's definitely the way to go). We should have an agreement where we can take it in ore or gold (our choice) depending on our future need.

Since my character does not wear armour or carry a shield, I guess the heaviest thing I would make is a long sword (and I just picked up a very nice one of those) - I will keep my share of the base metal for now and see if any other ideas strike me. In the end, I will probably use part of it to pay down my financial obligations to the party (ie the metal will remain with the party if desired) and trade it within the party so I can pay for other things.

I may use the remaining value from the ore to build a small tower in Cirdastan but, that will depend on the anticipated revenue flow from the royalties and other monies we come across. What does a small tower cost - $40K? What does a bigger tower cost - $48k?

We should consider secure off-site storage for the metal, otherwise we may be subject to attack/theft

I will definitely be spending some time working the underside of the town.

The best part is, if captured and asked the 1/2 orcs will claim you sound like one of those southern foreigners, the same ones we want taking the brunt of the Torosh Mak's rage at least until we have fortifications up and running.

As a tenant in the town your obligation is less than ours, so yes you may build a fortified structure of some sort but with no obligtion or stake that tower/mansion would NOT be part of the towns defensive system, you save the obligation to go high, and the obligation to supply a portion of the walls required.

tower Modlue cost by internal size, a module is considered to be 30 ft tall divided into 2 levels
30x30 1,800 sq ft over 2 levels for 16,800gp Roof top patio BBQ pit is extra space usable space if you see fit.
40x40 3,200 sq ft for 21,600gp
50x50 5,000 sq ft for 25,200gp

there is definately a cost savings for going large,, If you only want to spend a certain amount you're better off going for a large short squat building (50x50) than stacking two 30x tower modules, much more space for minimal cost. Inside the town height is really less of an advantage than it would be on the wall. That said you can always expand upwards if you get rich later.

Round towers give you a little less space a little less cost but its so damn hard to hang the wall paper and place furniature against a round wall.

You'd probably want to do some secret tunneling so you can leave your home in disguise. I'd suggest you build in the dock district and have a back door into a warehouse, brothel basement etc.

kubera wrote:

Those who needed the city facilites trained up in Greyhawk before we went home.

More killing power!

kubera wrote:

We (via Harcourt) recuited a couple of orc spys to go down the coast and check out your home town and other overun settlements […]

Smart plan. Did we charm the orcs, or were they simply paid?

kubera wrote:

After training we headed home by the roads suprising and destroying an orc patrol […]

Did we obtain our orcish spies from this band? "Serve us and live!"

kubera wrote:

Shall we negotiate a deal with clan Greysmere to reopen the adamantite mine? […]

Yes! I am not a man of commerce, so I don't know how we can best profit from this. A share of the profits, as you suggest, and/or perhaps some adamantite for our own use. Can any metal smith work it, or does it require special skills/tools? I'd like to know what kind of armour/weapons can be made out of it; our armourer in Greyhawk might be interested/capable.

kubera wrote:

On the espionage front the scouts have captured two humans trying to sneak in from the south, on both occassions they appeared to be charmed, geased, etc and killed themselves before they could be questioned. Apparently we are still considered a threat […]

That's disquieting. We should inform all settlers/inhabitants to be on the lookout for strangers. I suggest that every so often (depending on rate of immigration) we hold a "meet and greet" event for new arrivals--with every Cirdastani also in attendance; the real purpose of this would be to familiarize everyone with everyone else, thus making it harder for spies to arrive via border incursion. In addition, we should make sure that our patrols check each settler's homestead (especially those on the outskirts) to see if anything odd has been going on. We should also set up a procedure to screen new arrivals (detect evil, ask questions, etc.). Another idea: set up stings to trap spies (e.g., quietly leak false info about something we are building that would only interest our enemies, and monitor the reactions and/or set up an ambush).

kubera wrote:

Mopar you were waffling about the cost of your portion of the building program. You can have a smaller tower or none, but I would suggest that you'd want to at least pay for your share of city walls. Its not as if we aren't generating more cash adventuring, plus safe walls in encourage settlement and a larger tax base, eventually we'll start generating revenue.

The difference going to a small tower is only about 8k savings, but a great reduction in personal space. No tower will save you about 40k... but leaves the wall with a considerable lack strong points. […]

Yes, the costs seem way too high. I'm pitching in for any common costs. May not need my own tower, though; perhaps a floor or two. I don't want to run out of money, which is only a concern because we don't seem to be making much as adventurers. Did we calculate our recent treasure value?

kubera wrote:

We (via Harcourt) recuited a couple of orc spys to go down the coast and check out your home town and other overun settlements […]

Smart plan. Did we charm the orcs, or were they simply paid?

Just paid.

kubera wrote:

After training we headed home by the roads suprising and destroying an orc patrol […]

Did we obtain our orcish spies from this band? "Serve us and live!"

no they were city 1/2 orcs who could pass for full.

kubera wrote:

Shall we negotiate a deal with clan Greysmere to reopen the adamantite mine? […]

Yes! I am not a man of commerce, so I don't know how we can best profit from this. A share of the profits, as you suggest, and/or perhaps some adamantite for our own use. Can any metal smith work it, or does it require special skills/tools? I'd like to know what kind of armour/weapons can be made out of it; our armourer in Greyhawk might be interested/capable.

I may attempt master works at 12 NWP slots, I already have 8 in armourer which should allow me the opportuntity to work rare metals (adam and mithril) and fix our armour instead of jobing it out to Greyhawk at 200gp/hit point in a couple more levels.

kubera wrote:

On the espionage front the scouts have captured two humans trying to sneak in from the south, on both occassions they appeared to be charmed, geased, etc and killed themselves before they could be questioned. Apparently we are still considered a threat […]

That's disquieting. We should inform all settlers/inhabitants to be on the lookout for strangers. I suggest that every so often (depending on rate of immigration) we hold a "meet and greet" event for new arrivals--with every Cirdastani also in attendance; the real purpose of this would be to familiarize everyone with everyone else, thus making it harder for spies to arrive via border incursion. In addition, we should make sure that our patrols check each settler's homestead (especially those on the outskirts) to see if anything odd has been going on. We should also set up a procedure to screen new arrivals (detect evil, ask questions, etc.). Another idea: set up stings to trap spies (e.g., quietly leak false info about something we are building that would only interest our enemies, and monitor the reactions and/or set up an ambush).


Agreed, which is why I'm loaning my hat of disguise to Harcourt so that he may travel in lower circles of our community and look for spys , malcontents, and smuggling where we don't get our cut.. I think he should set himself up as King Pin so we can monitor larger crimes and eliminate the most vile of citizens we attract.

kubera wrote:

Mopar you were waffling about the cost of your portion of the building program. You can have a smaller tower or none, but I would suggest that you'd want to at least pay for your share of city walls. Its not as if we aren't generating more cash adventuring, plus safe walls in encourage settlement and a larger tax base, eventually we'll start generating revenue. The difference going to a small tower is only about 8k savings, but a great reduction in personal space. No tower will save you about 40k... but leaves the wall with a considerable lack strong points. […]

Yes, the costs seem way too high. I'm pitching in for any common costs. May not need my own tower, though; perhaps a floor or two. I don't want to run out of money, which is only a concern because we don't seem to be making much as adventurers. Did we calculate our recent treasure value?

3 little things to consider.

1. you are only 2 levels from attracting followers/men at arms, and if I remember the rules you need a stronghold. And while you do need to pay such men they are higher quality and higher loyalty and build your personal prestigue

2. You are a lord of a city live like it. Being too common is much like being too arrogant you can lose respect.

3. You are a young, powerful, rich, landed self made lordling. You are however Nueve riche, there would be excellent opportunites to make high friends and gain prestigue by finding yourself a bride with important friends and powerful lineages. This goes for all the founding fathers.

Medieval mind set, you must breed to replace yourself and the family you lost in Fax.


On a different note did we ever get big lump sum from the spice run we made, have we recieved any royalty payments for having set up the trade route? We should have some income from greyhawk due by now.
I'm posting this question directly to jonathan

Once we have a teleportist we are going back to the Amedio on yearly spice and giant pearl runs. We don't want to damage our relations with Greyhawk but we could bring the stuff out and sell it in Gyrax or go up to dyvers.

Have you not taken any crafting skill that you can begin to utilize at high levels to generate some extra income?

Ok, I rearanged the town map to accomodate you, There is one location on the sea where a tower would be proper but not necessary, how likely is a orc amphibious attack anyway? You can alway build there later when revenues improve.

WE can also cut cost by doing the work ourselves, but I can't issue rebates until I know how many weeks we add to the total process, that depends on how much time we are willing to spend at home. Can we earn more faster killing things than we save working? You and me perhaps but the spell casters add a lot of work value very quickly ,, Harcourt and Rotok can each do more than 20 peoples work by using their magic.

The 79,200 cost is based on all paid labour, I would hope to shave at least 10% off the total. To bad zombie brick layers were nixed.

Kubera,

Did you add in Carrow's and Ulthor's magical/clerical abilities to your calculations, or does the priestly side not help? Carrow will do his share, when he's not off taking care of his pursuits.

Is it possible to put the map of Cirdastan on the board or your site? I know of at least one useable, and free, terrain hex map program on the web if you'd like the link. Though the terrain is quite serviceable, I think the program also has wall, and similar, features. That said, I'm unsure of how detailed one can get.

Send me the link for the program.. I'll scan more maps in when I get the chance. Busy weekend, My mother is here.

The link's been sent. Enjoy your weekend.

Quote :

we don't seem to be making much as adventurers. Did we calculate our recent treasure value?

The recent acquisition of Adamantium may be a notable exception. If Paul's guestimate is correct, that could be sold for something greater than $17k.

Quote :

As a tenant in the town your obligation is less than ours, so yes you
may build a fortified structure of some sort but with no obligtion or
stake that tower/mansion would NOT be part of the towns defensive
system, you save the obligation to go high, and the obligation to supply
a portion of the walls required.

If I were to build a tower I would be willing to put it along the wall if it would help with the defensibility of the town. If not needed in such a capacity (or if it's considered inappropriate to my station) I will happily save the $$$. If I will be in town anyway, it gives me greater flexibility as to what I can build. I might choose something a little less fortified (cheaper) if I'm behind the walls. Is there a such a thing as tower "lite"?

Quote :

Ok, I rearanged the town map to accomodate you, There is one location on
the sea where a tower would be proper but not necessary, how likely is a
orc amphibious attack anyway? You can alway build there later when
revenues improve.

Is this directed at me? - your recommendation to build near the docks is sound so am assuming you are making some room. I will help with the defensive perimeter before I worry about my own building (I can't afford to build now anyways).

Quote :

have you not taken any crafting skill that you can begin to utilize at high levels to generate some extra income?

Although this question was directed at Mopar, it does beg a question... As a leader in Spellcraft knowledge, how can I leverage that into a source of income? Suggestions are welcome.

Quote :

Harcourt and Rotok can each do more than 20 peoples work by using their magic

Can my efforts here be used to service the financial obligations I have with Mopar and/or Rotok in some minor way? The most straightforward way would be if I focused my efforts by helping Mopar or Rotok with part of their build.

Willy, it all depends what the final ruling on NWP skills is,, if my suggestion that levels in NWP not magic user levels was used to to decide when a mage can write a scroll then you could probably do some of that. The problem is however we don't really have the market for selling scrolls and I really have no idea how much demand even a big city like Greyhawk would have for such luxuries.

Its important to look at the inter party synergies the NWP can generate.

I'm sure Carrow can make any inks you might need. He can also make other things you might wish to use, I just don't want to know about it.

Carrow can also make the acids/chemicals needed to etch or colour metal work.

I don't know how training works (how much of the cost is materials vs how much is the trainers time) but you might occasionally find someone who wants low level symbolist training.

You might spend some time helping in the town school and finding those students capable of practicing the arcane arts. While neither you nor Arcturus are high enough level to take on full students or run a guild etc I would think with your spell crafting skills you should be able to do all the basic training it would take to advance students from street scum, through to 1st. Check with Jonathan.

Surely between you, Arcturus and Rotok something can be worked out.. This work would have value to the town and even if the town decides to not fund this project, I would , at least until I drive myself broke.

kubera wrote:

The book states that our personal labour reduces the cost of the construction […]

If we don't pay for labour, we already own the stone, and we have the tools, what then are the costs?

This system is neither complete nor always rational but its the frame-work Jonathan is willing to work within. Considering he gave us this kind of money to even consider the project I'm not complaining nor trying to get it done for free, that's irrational. Our time is worth something to us as people and expediency is important to make the town as safe as possible as soon as possible

That said if you wish to learn to be an engineer, architect, smith, surveyor, brick maker, stone cutter, mason, carver, forester, carpenter, tile maker, glazier etc. then yes you could put in the 600 man weeks to build 1 module of medium sized tower. Without all these jobs happening at the same time however you would probably take many times longer to build,, having to stop in the middle of brick laying to make more mortar, running down to the kiln to pull a batch of bricks out and running back to find your mortar hardened.

A job this size requires a work force of a certain size to maintain flow and be efficient.

Other than our own added labour I think I've done all I can to cut the costs, This is why I built the kiln, I managed to lower the multiple from
1.5 X the base cost to 1.2x base cost.. The savings on 1 full tower was
enough to cover the cost of the kiln and in the long run is saving us about 100,000gp and creating a post building industry

Even with the brick works we will not be supplying all the building materials nor do we have skills or manpower to produce them all.
Iron, cut stone, tiles, glass, lime, etc are all things we will be importing, as well as much of the food for the laborers, we are no where near capable of feeding this work force but neither can we wait before protecting ourselves fully. Specialty things like gears for the drawbridge chain for example would have to be imported already constructed at sizable price.

We also have a bunch of experts on staff such as the architect and an engineer, smiths, castelen who cost more than most of the rabble combined. Sure one of us could learn these skills but it would take time and anchor that character to the site permanently.

The rules specify that we work better, have extra skills, sometimes extra powers which make the job go faster. Harcourt would not only be casting spells to make us more efficient but using urban asset relocation skills to weed out waste and corruption, and perhaps even acquire supplies at a discount. You would be using your superior physique and skills to some of the work plus your leadership abilities to get more work out of the peasants, I don't think its meant to imply we can ever do all the work at this accelerated pace.