What Mopar missed

kubera wrote:

We also have a time constraint [re. the mine], knowing the swamp is now safe it could be grabbed by the local humans anytime now.. This is why I want to deal the dwarves in pronto

But the local humans don't know about the castle or the mine underneath. True, they could stumble upon it, but they haven't for a long time (the troglodytes, whose power we broke, were recent arrivals). Not that I want to delay anything.

kubera wrote:

From real world mining I know that if you turn over a property to another mining company and they take over all the expense and risk you get a net smelters royalty, which is the equivalent of 4-6% the value of the metal mined.

Considering we took the risk to clean it out I would put us at the high end of that range. If they require us to help seal it and make sure its safe from underdark access, especially if that turns into a big bug hunt then we might earn in up to 10% I would not expect more unless we fund and man its rehabilitation. We don't need the extra hassle in my opinion.

We should demand more than these percentages), whether in cash or metal. As you mentioned, we already took large risks that were well above and beyond the mining risk.

kubera wrote:

For new metal I'd suggest we take the metal, not the money,, the metal is a high priced luxury good and for Cirdastan to be a market with a regular supply would put our market on the map.

Agreed. If we take metal, we could sell it in Greyhawk and/or use it (adamantite weapons, armour, etc.). We could also commission crafstmen to produce objects with it (i.e., we pay for their work, but retain ownership for later sale); I'm guessing that a crafted adamantite item would have a large markup (compared to metal value + craftsman labour). If we have sufficient supply, Cirdastan could be the place to buy it, as you also pointed out.

Making a hefty profit is never a hassle. It's more fun than manual labour, surely.

Paul wrote:

[…] adamantite bars at, "100 g.p weight each." Their value listed in the module: I bar of mithral = 2500 g.p, 1 bar adamantite = 4000 g.p. From D1-2, "**value in the underworld only is 4,000 g.p./bar." This implies the surface world value for both ores is more.

That makes it worth 40 times more than gold—in the underworld.

(Curse you, Gary, for not stating its surface value. He also left unanswered questions in at least one module: The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. I'll ask him why when we meet in Pandemonium.)

kubera wrote:

I think it was 20 [coins]/lb.

This is correct. Therefore, the value of 1 lb. adamantite = 800 g.p.—in the underworld.

Therefore, the value of 40 lb. of adamantite = 32,000 g.p.—in the underworld.

kubera wrote:

The best part is, if captured and asked the 1/2 orcs will claim you sound like one of those southern foreigners, the same ones we want taking the brunt of the Torosh Mak's rage at least until we have fortifications up and running.

The old play-them-off-against-each-other ploy. Well done.

kubera wrote:

tower Modlue cost by internal size, a module is considered to be 30 ft tall divided into 2 levels
30x30 1,800 sq ft over 2 levels for 16,800gp Roof top patio BBQ pit is extra space usable space if you see fit.
40x40 3,200 sq ft for 21,600gp
50x50 5,000 sq ft for 25,200gp

there is definately a cost savings for going large,, If you only want to spend a certain amount you're better off going for a large short squat building (50x50) than stacking two 30x tower modules, much more space for minimal cost.

We'll have to compare notes. (Where is this info coming from?--Steve)

My quote is:

Round tower, 4 levels, 60' tall, 40' inner dia., 10' thick walls + stretch of adjoining curtain wall: 79.200 g.p.

I do want a quality place to live in Cirdastan, one that befits my status as lord. Will have to count my remaining treasure to see how much I want to spend here.

Wilhelm wrote:

As a leader in Spellcraft knowledge, how can I leverage that into a source of income? Suggestions are welcome.

An idea: sell or lease continual-light-based lamps. Find out which spells can help locals with their tasks. (Pretend you are a peasant/craftsman/etc. and try to figure out which of Harcourt's spells would make your life easier--Steve.)

Quote :

Round tower, 4 levels, 60' tall, 40' inner dia., 10' thick walls + stretch of
adjoining curtain wall: 79.200 g.p.

I do want a quality place to live in
Cirdastan, one that befits my status as lord. Will have to count my remaining
treasure to see how much I want to spend here.

this price is for a tower + 500 ft of 30 ft curtain wall, allowing us to totaly encircle an area about 2.5 x the area enclosed in the palisade. including river and sea. The priced were generated using the rules in the tsr castle book. It gives a base price which you modify for terain, work force skill, weather, availability and quality if materials.

one modual of tower is just under 20k that's 30 ft in two levels.a tower tall enough for the wall needs to be 2 moduals= 60 ft tall = about 40k, the remainder 32,900 is wall

[quote="SteveL"]

kubera wrote:

For new metal I'd suggest we take the metal, not the money,, the metal is a high priced luxury good and for Cirdastan to be a market with a regular supply would put our market on the map.

SteveL wrote:

Agreed. If we take metal, we could sell it in Greyhawk and/or use it (adamantite weapons, armour, etc.). We could also commission crafstmen to produce objects with it (i.e., we pay for their work, but retain ownership for later sale); I'm guessing that a crafted adamantite item would have a large markup (compared to metal value + craftsman labour). If we have sufficient supply, Cirdastan could be the place to buy it, as you also pointed out.

Making a hefty profit is never a hassle. It's more fun than manual labour, surely.

I'm new to the campaign, so I have to ask:

How safe, for lack of a better term, would it to be to advertise the availability of adamantite in Cirdastan?

Where can we store our share safely?

SteveL wrote:

That makes it worth 40 times more than gold—in the underworld.

Yep, that's why I quoted the text from D1-2. The surface value has me curious...

SteveL wrote:

(Curse you, Gary, for not stating its surface value.

...I thought the same thing.

Quote :

We should demand more than these percentages), whether in cash or metal. As you mentioned, we already took large risks that were well above and beyond the mining risk.

We took the orginal risk as a commision, to claim the dwarves owe us for a risk we willingly took for a minor cash reward is nonsense. 1. we don't have the men, skills or time to set up a mine2. we have no idea if there is any ore left3. we want someone else to take ALL the future financial risk for what may be an empty mine, do you want to spend 10k to find its been played out? We can demand anything but to open negotiations they have to know what we found and now they do, we make a deal they can live with or they will go looking for it on their own.. Also we want this clan on our side as friends and allies, not competetors.

Quote :

The old play-them-off-against-each-other ploy. Well done.

Thank You. It was my second choice but, it likely works better than the first.

Quote :

I'm new to the campaign, so I have to ask:

How safe, for lack of a better term, would it to be to advertise the availability of adamantite in Cirdastan?

Where can we store our share safely?

I believe I had suggested off-site storage earlier as well. It has to be a trade off between safety and making C-stan a centre for trade. I would suggest we store it in Greyhawk for now and when everything is built we can bring it to C-stan.

Quote :

We should demand more than these
percentages), whether in cash or metal. As you mentioned, we already
took large risks that were well above and beyond the mining risk.

Lets keep in mind that Mopar died in delivering the goods and may be feeling the need for greater reward. I'm ok with asking for as much as we can get but, realistically we have intellectual property (knowledge of the mine) which we want to leverage. We don't want to be miners and we don't know anything about mining. Nor do we really want to hire staff to mine (too much management). Royalties are clearly the way to go. Since we are undertaking absolutely no capital risk it is difficult to justify a royalty rate beyond 15%. Even that is aggressive. The evil mouse empire typically takes 10% for their intellectual property deals. The mining industry takes 6% to have someone else work their mines. I see this as a very special metal and would warrant a rate in the 10% to 12% range

Paul,
I would think the metal would be divided between us to hide, sell, store as each sees fit, its not a group decision.
You could easily hide your in the woods where no one could find yours, or you could purchase storage in Greyhawk.

It will be very good when we get a teleporting mage, who can haul stuff back and forth from the big smoke in a bag of holding.


The only group decisions is how to deal with the mine, not the proceeds. Willy has it about right but I would say if they do everything we would be in the 6-7 range, if we help plug the water leaks and seal the entrance to the underdark 10% we would only earn 15% if we pay for part of the labour and/or are forced to fight a prolonged war with dark elves and such.. (I don't believe the distraction from our town is worth such a endeavor until the town is fully fortified.)

If there is a major entrance to the underdark this place could be untenable, being in a swamp with underground rivers it may also be impossible to drain, or require mucho magic, and it might require more partners further watering down our stake, this is by no means a guarantee.

Maybe we could open the Drow Land Adventure Park, charge adventurers 10% of all the loot the bring back

We can play a minor threat card.

Our first impulse was to collapse the entire complex to block the underdark but after the spirit of king ______ identified such a valuable resource for our fight against evil we were willing to investigate other options to se if the benefit outweighs the risks to the topside dwellers.

or something like that, subtle

As for the risk of storing the metal I think the greater risk would be if anyone learned Libram carries a 1/4 million in gems and gold in his bag of holding.

Lets wait and see what value our DM assigns to the metal, he may not accept the modules price. Between our personal gear and our Goddess reward, a little pile of Adamantium may be added cash flow but not become a massive security issue.

As for manufacturing Adamantium, I can work Armour with it in 2 more levels, 3-4 for weapons but we are no where near having anybody who can enchant them, so people who want something made are going to wait or pay big money for outside custom work.

Mopar I may be wrong but I don't think we can prework the metal and sell blanks ready for enchanting. The reason being I believe the rules on making magic items specifies that you must create the weapon/wand etc from the finest materials and workmanship and proceed to enchanting immediately so the item is not tainted by naturally occurring energies.

Each piece must be created custom from forging to casting enchant item, adding the various abilities, pluses and finally casting permanency all in quick succession. To miss a step requires going back to scratch and reworking or purifying the item before starting again.

If we make good allies with the dwarves perhaps they will do some enchanting for us at cost. I'm wondering if they can enchant a smiths hammer so it adds to my skill, then I can make better stuff sooner. The likelihood we will be allowed to make +5 gear for all our guys is minimal, fucks with game balance too much. In the end we'll each probably sell or trade the majority of the metal in order to get one really good thing or a favour.